Petrus Gernus ex Majoratu ducis de Bois (born 1680's?) - who was he?

There were very few persons called Gernus in the Netherlands.

Although there was a Petrus Kennis * 19-02-1677 Riethoven.
Parents: Martinus Kennis(Keenes) x Eliza N.N.

Different manners of writing as for the -familyname-.

Kind regards.

Good afternoon Lars,

People from the Brabant region who travelled to and established themselves in Germany as of 1700, were mainly weavers, falconers and merchants (Krämer in German).

Since you have seen the marriage certificate and have knowledge of the family, would it be possible to provide us with names of witnesses?
Maybe we recognize some of the names.

The name Kenens is known in Brabant as well as in the Province of Limburg in Belgium.

Thanks to Norah and Geraldine for interesting replies.

Unfortunately neither the engagement document nor the wedding certificate have any names of witnesses. And I have found no information as far as Petrus' occupation is concerned. However, his wife Susanna JOCHUM, born in Illingen in 1681, had a father who came from a family of mineral workers («Bergwerksbauer») in Schröcken in the Province of Vorarlberg in Austria, so my guess is he may have done something similar(?). By the way, the engagement paper from 1707 shows a different place of origin. it looks like «ex Hemmel d.... Ducis de Bois».

Too bad I don't know how to copy the documents into this message, but you can see them here where I have asked for help to interpret the text:
forum.ahnenforschung.net/showthread.php?t=187665 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Thanks again for your great assistance in this matter and take care!

Cordially yours,

Lars E. Oyane

Lars,
Thank you, additional info was helpful.
Have you seen documents about their children?
Have you seen the name of Johann Peter in the books, as a witness for his wife’s family?

It is correct that the text means Meijerij van 's Hertogenbosch'.
It covers the eastern part of the province and down to the south.
I would like to read the name as ex Lommel in the engagement paper.
During that time Lommel, was part of the quarter Kempenland van de Meierij van 's-Hertogenbosch
Lommel, is in the province Limburg, Belgium.
To search there, follow these steps:
Find the site for the national archive of Belgium
search.arch.be/en/ (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
Create a free account and note your username and password.
Find this link on the second part of the homepage: Overview of church registers
This brings up all the provinces. Choose - Province Limburg
Scroll to Lommel, parochie Sint-Petrus
(looks like no more English from here)
Click on Parochieregisters. Index
Choose Parochieregisters. Alfabetische index van dopen
Click on the time range 00/00/1676 - 00/00/1808
If you have logged in, you see this line at the top
Gedigitaliseerde archiefdocumenten (142)
Next you can scroll 142 pages of names.
K starts at page 61, rightside
Documents of baptism, are not available.
You could look up a marriage of parents in an index as well.

In your info:
The Petrus Kennis baptized on April 3rd 1684 is from Contich, province of Antwerp, Belgium.

Regards

In addition to what Geraldine already shared..

Lars, - can we find the records of this family via Family Search?.
Could you share the names of some of their children, incl. their sponsors at baptism? Especially the oldest ones. Perhaps some of the sponsors could have been relatives 'from back home'.. though perhaps represented by local parishioners.

In the scan provided by you in the German forum I can't figure out the word just before 'ducis de Bois' yet. But the name before that - "Hemmel" in your opinion - can be read as "Hemmet" too I think... (compare with the 't' in Petrus or in Margareta).
You could ask for transcription help in this forum : watstaatdaer.nl/forum (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Then it could be Hamont ( I think in local dialect pronounced as Häemet)- a place in 'De Kempen' (a region in the province of Brabant in The Netherlands and the province of Limburg in Belgium, and historically part of the Meijerij van 's-Hertogenbosch and as part of the Duchy of Brabant. [Nowadays the Meijerij van 's-Hertogenbosch is a much smaller area in the Dutch procince of Noord-Brabant].
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meierij_van_%27s-Hertogenbosch (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

The name Kenens, Kenes, Kenis and variants is known in this wider area as Geraldine already wrote.
And this name is also found in connection with the so-called Teuten.
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teut_(handel) (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
teuten.lingers.eu/ (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
I came acrosse these names in the following books I have on my shelves:
- 'De Teuten, buitengaanders van de Kempen'
- 'Lommel, De vrijheid en Het Teutendorp'

Geraldine pointed out the travellers, falconers and merchants who left this region in Kempenland. It was not always to establish themselves In Germany, many returned 'home' to their families. Some found love abroad though and stayed on ;-) . In general they left their families for a few months to earn an income ( trading, offering their craftsmanship as tinkers, collecting hair that was to be used by wig makers, 'vets' who castrated cattle, etc.). They went as far away as the Moselle area in the south, Denmark in the north, and futher east towards the mountain ranges in Hessen in Germany.

You could also search via FS.
Lommel:
familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=157464&query=%2Bplace%3A%22Belgium%2C%20Limburg%2C%20Lommel%22%20%2Bavailability%3AOnline (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Hamont
familysearch.org/search/catalog/results?count=20&placeId=157402&query=%2Bplace%3A%22Belgium%2C%20Limburg%2C%20Hamont%22%20%2Bavailability%3AOnline (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

and try other places in this area as well

Thanks a million to Geraldine and Helena for new interesting contributions!

I have tried several times to join the site of the Belgian archives, but I just don't manage to get in! Apparently I do something wrong... It seems like I may have to call them for help. Then I could perhaps speak French, since that's easier for me (I lived in la Wallonie for five years in the 1980's...).

It is interesting to notice that Petrus KENES may have come from Limburg in Belgium, but before I start ij detail to search, it would be greast to know exactly ehere to look, so I have posted an inquiry in the watstaatdaer.nl/forum (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

See whether anyone answers. I have so far no certain answers from Germany...

I have further examined the parish records in Illingen. Petrus KENES died Sep. 30, 1723, but neither age nor profession is given. With Susanna he had at least six children including two sets of twins:

* 12.2.1712: Anna Catharina und Anna Francisca KENUS - sponsors Johann Keßler with Anna Catharina Keßler and Peter Dich with Anna Francisca Dich

* 5.4.1715 Johann Mathias (here the father is called Johann Peter KENES!) - sponsors Johann Mathias Jochem with Elisabeth Woll

* 11.6.1718 Laurentius and Johann Peter - sponsors Laurentius Boalze(?) with Susanna Weiß and Johann Peter Hell with Elisabeth Balles(?)

* 23.12.1721 Anna Barbara - sponsors Conradus Dhur and Anna Barbara Höhnel

Most of these sponsors seem to come from the neighborhood, but the DICH couple from 1712 is completely unknown!

Thanks again for your great assistance in this matter! I don't easily give up, so sooner or later this Petrus GERNUS shall be found!

Very sincerely yours,

Lars E. Oyane

- It seems that the children are named after their sponsors.. [ and not- as I hoped for- giving us a clue who the paternal grandparents could be...not yet..]. Are these baptism entries online in FS or just via the index as one can see? Or do you have copies of these entries?
- Wondering about the baptism in 1712. You mention two couples (must be for the twins), and one of them an uncommon name in Illingen in your experience...is - perhaps - one couple noted as 'in nomine' or 'loco' ?
- Can the other sponsors be traced to families in Illingen?

- They married in Jan. 1708 and one would expect the first children not too long after that date. However, the first child you mention is from 1712? They lived during the turbulent years of the Spanish Succession war etc. and perhaps..with a husband not often home..these twins could have been their first born?

The name Kenens (and variants) is certainly a name that appeared / appears in quite a few places in the wider region already mentioned by us. [ and by others in the other forum --
stamboomforum.nl/familienamen/2/76170/0/hans_petrus_gernus_born_1680_85inshertogenbosch_married_saarland_germany_1708_who_was_he (opent in een nieuw tabblad) ]

In the CD-Rom ' Genealogie uit Limburg (B) ' - have an older version though - and browsing through the names it is obvious to me that this name and variants is common in this region. [ The index gives me quite a few and perhaps in a younger version of this program (on USB stick now) the total could be higher). Have a look at what is now in this 2020 - index. pro-gen.be/namenusb2020/vzidx.htm (opent in een nieuw tabblad) . The number behind the name refers to the totals. pro-gen.be/index.htm (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

To mention a few general sites
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburg_(Belgische_provincie) (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kempen_(streek) (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campine (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

I am sure your search goes into the right direction >> Ducis de Bois >> Meijerij van 's-Hertogenbosch >> ??? it is a question of interpreting the place name correctly and hoping the church records are available for that place.

@Helena and other readers,
where you able to see the picture Gernus Jochem (2).jpg in the first link Lars gave us? I copied the name of the picture into Google and came in his Norwegian site.
forum.arkivverket.no/topic/245603-gernus-ein-familie-fr%C3%A5-shertogenbosch-i-noord-brabant-nederland-1680/ (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

The picture is of the schepenhuwelijk.

I said Lommel but if I look again it is more Gemmel.

@Geraldine, - yes, I could see the picture since - in the past- I used to be on that same forum in Germany for my own German research and my login was still valid.
It could be helpful to see the full page and see how the letters are written in other entries.

Right, it is not a G, more an H.
I did not see any scan on familysearch, just the scripts.
Germany, Rhineland, Diocese of Trier, Catholic Church Records, 1704-1957

Thanks again to Helena and Geraldine for wonderful attempts trying to help me locate the origin of this Petrus GERNUS!

Now, looking at the marriage record of the next couple in the Illingen engagement and marriage books, this is for a (Johann) Mathias HELL and Margaretha BALTES. The first letter H is quite clearly the same as for Petrus' origin, so it definitely says «ex HAMMEL ...... Ducis de BOIS», but what is the word in between.

I have studied this name very long today, and wonder if it doesn't end with -ch. Could it be «de Urch»? Is there any local name sounding like this in «Majoratu Ducis de BOIS»?

Thanks again for your wonderful assistance!

Cordially yours,

Lars E. Oyane

Dear Listers!

I forgot to add the following: While Susanna JOCHUM's padents had both died by 1707 (defuncti), Petrus' father Andreas GERNUS was apparently still alive!

I also forgot to say about the children. The birth records prior to 1712 appear not to be quite complete, so any children born between 1708 and 1712 may be missing...

Thanks again for any little «bit and piece» of information you may be able to find!

Cordially yours,

Lars E. Oyane

I saw the record of 1707 and it says literally: ex hemmel de Nois ducis de bois'.
Nois is I think a Latin abbreviation (above the 'n' is an abbreviation sign) meaning 'Nominis' which I think is the genitive form of 'Nomen'. Difficult to say with certainty what 'Nominis' here means but a possibility is 'confederancy' or 'bond', some other translations, circling between 'confederancy' and 'nation' are possible also.

nominis: genaamd ?
Hemmel> verbasterd/verkeerd opgeschreven Helmond ?/Empel

de nominis >>> out of? from? named? called?

Thanks a million to Michiel, Jan and Helena for new thoughts on this name!

I am not too sure of that Nois interpretation... Although the end could be ois or oes - compare with Jois (abbr. of Johann) Weißerbach on the third line from the bottom - on the other hand we have the -bach ending...

I did receive a suggestion from Germany the name could refer to one of the Polders northeast of 's-Hertogenbosch called Hoog HEEMAAL or Laag HEEMAAL, also known as Hoog HEMMEL and Laag HEMMEL; can be viewed on this old map: catawiki.com/l/9115125-noord-brabant-oostt-brabant-isaak-tirion-new-map-of-the-meiery-of-s-hertogenbosch-1755 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

This area is still within the «Meiery»!
Towns in Laag Hemmel include Alem, Maren und Kessel.
Towns in Hoog Hemmel seem to include Lith, Lithojen and maybe Nuland and Oss?

What do you think?

Thanks again for any suggestions!

Very sincerely yours,

Lars E. Oyane

Me again, looking closer at a current map, the entire area of the HEMMEL Polders seem be within the County of OSS!

Could that «mysterious» name between Hemmel and Ducis de Bois be something like «de UOSCH» = OSS?

Lots of Catholic churches in this area, but how old are they: google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=Oss+Netherland+catholic+churches&npsic=0&rflfq=1&rlha=0&rllag=51760470,5524880,1099&tbm=lcl&ved=2ahUKEwjYv8-BsM3oAhUNQxUIHaTYAOcQjGp6BAgJEDY&tbs=lrf:!1m4!1u3!2m2!3m1!1e1!1m4!1u2!2m2!2m1!1e1!2m1!1e2!2m1!1e3!3sIAE,lf:1,lf_ui:2&rldoc=1#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv (opent in een nieuw tabblad):[[52.26430323397962,6.140667804265023],[51.3292508659384,4.739910968327523],null,[51.799200872349076,5.440289386296273],10]

Are we maybe approaching an answer to this great challenge?

Thanks again for your wonderful assistance!

Cordially yours,

Lars E. Oyane

Looking at what Jan lange writes Hemmel = Helmond? it is interesting to note that one Augustinus Kennis and one Peter Kennis appear in the notarial records of a Helmond notaris around 1700: rhc-eindhoven.nl/collectie?mivast=48&miadt=48&mizig=100&miview=tbl&milang=nl&micols=1&misort=dt%7Casc&mip1=ken*&mip5=helmond&mibj=1670&miej=1730&mib1=224 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

In the open flaps of the + under the name of the person in the database of the Regionaal historisch centrum Eindhoven then appears a remark 'overleden' (=dead) but when controlling other names in notarial records of this Helmond notary it appears all names of persons have the remark 'overleden' so this should be a bugg in the systems. One might assume they are all dead by now, but not in that contemporary time. So one have to check de original minutes of the notarial records but my guess this that this Peter Kennis was alive in 1703. When having in mind what Norah says - a Peter Kennis who was baptized in Riethoven in 1677- which is not far from Helmond, than this is interesting enough to search further in the Kempen and in Helmond.

[ sorry Lars, not in English ..perhaps tomorrow (or others can explain to you) , ..my evening has started where I live..]

@Michiel, -In de publicatie ' De protocollen der Helmondsche Notarissen (1595-1798)' van Aug. Sassen vind je de regesten van enkele van deze akten.

Notaris Dirck Deckers
- 21 maart 1701
Dit is een lang regest wat ik nu niet helemaal neerpen, maar daarin wordt de heer Augustinus Kennis genoemd als Roomsch priester tot Helmondt. In dit verband het bekende verhaal over de bekeerlinge Sophia Aelberts die vanuit Helmond naar Venray gevlucht was en zich aan ouderlijk gezag onttrokken had. [ van protestant <-> naar rooms-katholiek]. Zag scan van deel van deze akte op: brabantserfgoed.nl/personen/a/alberts-sophia (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Notaris Dirck Deckers
- 28 mei 1703
Als erfgenamen van Paulus Kennis en zijn echtgenoote Maria Dielis worden genoemd: Jacobus Reyns, gehuwd met Helena Quers;
diens oom Thomas Porters, als vader en voogd van de minderjarige kinderen, verwekt bij wijlen zijne echtgenoote Isabella Robert;
mr Peter Kennis;
de kinderen van diens zuster Elisabeth Kennis;
Joost Kennis en de andere kinderen van wijlen Dirck Kennis;
François de Cos, als gehuwd met Maria Kennis.
De goederen , tot de nalatenschap behoorende, lagen te Middelburg