Question regarding the family Robbe/Ribbe/Ribs in Dreumel/Wamel

Hello Finn,

Having ancestors from Dreumel myself I have tried to be of help for you, but so far get nothing when searching on (variations of) the names Franciscus in combination with Robbe.
Hopefully other Forum participants can find information or give clues where to look for them.
In the meantime, can you give us information on your sources so far ?
Any links to and names of records might be useful.

With regards,

Belem

With regard to Francis Ribo/Rubo and Reijntje de Jong I found the following records:

NG marriage Puijflijk 23-07-1758
Floris van der Burgh (jm) x Reijntjen Egberts de Jongh (jd)
Note: both living in Leeuwen
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/6C643E0A1A2640BCB8371659F5D0FA1B (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
____

NG marriage notice Leeuwen 11-04-1772
Francis Ribo (jm) x Reijntje de Jong (w)
Note: both living in Leeuwen
familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QSQ-G9WK-FDLL?cc=2038506&lang=nl&i=11 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
____

NG marriage Herwen 28-09-1794
Franciscus Rubo (w) x Hendrina Coster (jd)
Note: Franciscus lives in Herwen, Hendrina in Elten (Germany)
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/AEBE08E2DD5344C990FD13D0BB7E662E (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
____

RK Baptism Wamel 03-04-1772
Florentius, son of Gerardus Scheeren and Gertrudis van der Burght
Note: baptismal sponsors are Franciscus Ribo and Henrica de Jong
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/227C6DB077CA4610ACB78DCA8532D2A0 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

As for your question:

"Franciscus Robbe/Ribbe/Ribs, baptized 4th August 1736 in the dutch reformed church in Dreumel.

I also found a "sub conditione" baptism for a Franciscus Janssen Robbe on 22 March 1752 in the catholic church of Dreumel and I was wondering if this is the same person baptized here, as the catholic priest could not be sure if a baptism in the proper rites had been performed."

It is unlikely this concerns the same person baptised twice.

A "sub conditione" baptism (conditional baptism) was usually performed by the midwife if it was feared that the child would not live long. Not long enough to be baptised in church. Only baptised people could be buried in consecrated ground and find their way to eternal rest. Unbaptised children were buried nameless outside the church cemetery.

RK marriage Neder-Elten 21-10-1794
Franciscus Rubs x Hendrina Kösters
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/928A2AB97B634599BE939491AEB66818 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

RK baptism Aerdt 28-12-1794
Joannes, son of Franciscus Rubo and Henrica Custer
witnesses: Anna Maria Custer and Jacobus Wemmers
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/1A08B13872B44393AB85F55C2A473330 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

RK baptism Oud-Zevenaar 10-12-1797
Henricus, son of Franciscus Rubo and Hendrina Koter
witnesses: Everardus Roelofs and Sibilla Haskens
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/DF14825A0E12453EA42E7E6B070BA7B2 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Death certificate Zevenaar 28-11-1849 deed nr. 69
Hendrina Kuster, widow of Franciscus Rubo
Note: aged almost 89 years, born in Elten (Germany)
permalink.geldersarchief.nl/DCDEFEB9850D416CB45A5F6C12A55605 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Thank you guys for your first thoughts!

I can provide some additional sources to what Frank has posted above:

NG Baptism Dreumel 04-08-1736
Francis, son of Jan Robben "papist" and Mariken Peters
familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99WK-BVQ?wc=SMH3-VZH%3A1292637101%2C346807401%2C346893501%26cc%3D2038506&lang=de&i=20&cc=2038506 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

More sibilings can be found in this set of documents.
____

NG Marriage Dreumel 06-04-1730
Jan Robben, (jm) van Osch x Mariken Peters (w)
On page 100: permalink.geldersarchief.nl/E3BC51D9C5C24D3B822793EC245621BB (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
There is more information in the margin, that I could not really decipher except that it is about Jan and Mariken having different denominations.

The fact that I could not find any information in the RK registers in Dreumel about Robben/Ribben from that timeframe but Franciscus married in a catholic ceremony in Puiflijk and would later on in life be a practicing catholic made me come up with the theory that it is the same Francis as in the RK registers from 1752. While sub conditione baptisms often happen under the circumstances you describe, they are also performed for adults in cases where a proper baptism could not be stablished.

Maybe the notes in the margins of Jan Robbens and Mariken Peters wedding could be a further indication.

Also for Franciscus marriage to Reijntje de Jong, it says "beide von alhier". Would that suggest that both are currently living in Leeuven, which seems questionable because usually the wedding happens in the woman's hometown, in this case Puiflijk or rather that both originally hail from the town or at least the region?

To answer your last question: At some point, the Roman Catholic church in Leeuwen fell victim to the water and became unusable (1706 ?). From that moment on, (parts of) Wamel, Leeuwen, and Puijflijk formed a single parish. Consequently, the RC inhabitants of Leeuwen attended church in Puijflijk. Leeuwen did not become an independent parish again until 1796.

In your story, I am missing the link—or rather, proof or clues—how you get from the Francis Rubo who married Reijntje de Jong to the baptismal record of Francis Robben in 1736.
Is this to be found in the complex legal case from Jan Ribben from 1770 you wrote about?

In all the records, we see the name written as Rubo and occasionally as Ribo.
My intuition would suggest that the name Rubo/Ribo is more likely derived from a French family name (such as Ribot, Roubot, ...) than from the patronym Robben. But again, this is just my speculation.

That's why I was wondering if "beide von alhier" is an indication of where the spouses are currently residing or if it rather an indication that they were born locally. I could only find Ribs/Rib that was somewhat similar locally. And those spellings seem to be at least somewhat interchangeable with Ribbe. I was working under the assumption that Franciscus was a local and I could thus most likely find him in the local church books.

The legal case does not really establish much further context about the family, unfortunately, even though it is a very interesting document for everyone who want to know how trade up and down the rivers was conducted.

I did also find further mentions of Arnolda Janssen Robbe (openarchieven.nl/search.php?name=Arnolda+Janse+Robbe (opent in een nieuw tabblad)) who was baptized on the same day as Franciscus. If this is the same person then she became a mother in 1764, which means the baptism in 1752 could not have been that of an infant.

Just for the record (it doesn't provide additional information) the RC marriage in Elten.

data.matricula-online.eu/de/deutschland/muenster/elten-st-martinus/KB003_1/?pg=57 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

Hopefully we'll also find his burial or death certificate.

@Frank

>>>
In all the records, we see the name written as Rubo and occasionally as Ribo.
My intuition would suggest that the name Rubo/Ribo is more likely derived from a French family name (such as Ribot, Roubot, ...) than from the patronym Robben. But again, this is just my speculation.
<<<

That is likely.
However, I also searched on both Geni and Genanet on Franciscus Robbe, and got a number of search results with persons from French language areas (today Belgium and France) with the family name Robbe/Robbé/etc.. So Robben/Ribo/Rubo might also be derived from a French family name.

With regards,

Belem

I will have to look closer if Robben/Ribben are really interchangeable as far as the families in Dreumel is concerned, but I suspect so. I found the RK churchmember list yesterday in familysearch, which is a very interesting resource to cross-reference.

As far as his death certificate is concerned, I am doubtful but it would help me a great deal.

I have some further documents on him. His son Johann Rübo married in 1823 in Griethausen, DE. He and his mother Hendrina Cöster, went to the local mayor and told him that Franz had been missing for over 25 years. That lines up roughly with the date his last son was born in Oud-Zevenaar in December of 1797. Hendrina only died in 1849 in Oud-Zevenaar. I have found her death certificate already but no further information about Franz can be found there.

I did also find a lease agreement for one year between Franz Rubo and the NG church in Aerdt from the Streekarchivariaat de Liemers en Doesburg where he tried to rent the local rectory for five years but was only granted a one year lease because of the risk of billeting of soldiers into the rectory. That was from May 1795 to May 1796 I think.

And I did find him, I think, 1801 in Delft as godparent🙁zoeken.stadsarchiefdelft.nl/detail.php?nav_id=4-2&id=23807593&index=0 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)). Which is very curious because from the document in 1823 in Griethausen we know, that by that time he had already gone missing.

"NG Marriage Dreumel 06-04-1730
Jan Robben, (jm) van Osch x Mariken Peters (w)
On page 100: permalink.geldersarchief.nl/E3BC51D9C5C24D3B822793EC245621BB (opent in een nieuw tabblad)
There is more information in the margin, that I could not really decipher except that it is about Jan and Mariken having different denominations."

I understand from the note that, by signing it, Jan declares that he will not persuade or coerce (‘moeien’) either Maaiken or their children to convert to his religion

Maaiken's first marriage:

Huwelijk Steven Esscher en Maaiken Peters Wijers, 03-09-1718
Volgnummer op pagina: 5
Kerkelijke gemeente: Wamel en Dreumel
Bruidegom/bruid: Steven Esscher
Maaiken Peters Wijers
Maaiken Wijers,Peters
Toegangsnummer: 0176
Inventarisnummer: 1684.1
Pagina: 179

permalink.geldersarchief.nl/701E1C3AAB4E403BB88E92B62E0A618E (opent in een nieuw tabblad), scan 94

For Dreumel you can also search in 0182 ORA Land tussen Maas en Waal at the website of Gelders Archief.
geldersarchief.nl/bronnen/archieven?mivast=37&mizig=210&miadt=37&miview=inv2&milang=nl&mizk_alle=ora&micode=0182#inv3t3 (opent in een nieuw tabblad)

ORA = Oud rechterlijk archief = old judicial archives

Hello Finn,I am currently researching this topic as well, since he is one of my great-grandfathers. In my family, the name was always spelled "Rübo". According to what my great-grandmother Elisabeth (Lisa) Rübo said, the name originally came from French and was spelled "Rubeau". I suspect they might have been Walloon immigrants who travelled via the Netherlands. I am stuck at the exact same point you were back then: finding out who the ancestors of Franciscus Rubo were.In the meantime, I have found the original marriage record from 1794. It states that Franciscus Rubo was the widower of Reijnera de Jong. It is also documented that he later married my ancestor from Elten, H. Custor/Custör. What I unfortunately could not find at all is any evidence of the sub conditione Catholic baptism in 1752 in Dreumel.Therefore, I would like to ask if you have a link to that source and if you were generally able to find out where Franciscus actually came from. This mix-up of names is very confusing. Best regards, Andrea

It is also very interesting to know that he was a clog maker. Back then, this was likely a traveling trade, and many specialists came from what is now Wallonia. Many young men probably learned the craft there and then moved up the rivers. His disappearance in 1797 could have been an attempt to escape the French, who were recruiting at the time. He might have worked in a clog factory in Delft or somewhere similar, where several Walloons are said to have been employed. Gelderland has hardly any death registers from that period because Catholics apparently did not have their own cemeteries; this means they were often buried in Protestant graveyards and therefore not necessarily recorded in the church register

Hello Andrea, I think I can help you out with quite a bit of further information! Is there any way I can find you on one of the genealogy sites where we can chat, so I can give you my contact information?
Looking forward to exchanging information!

Hi Finn, I’m on Ancestry under the name shown here. I think I’ve seen your name there before 🙂