Seeking confirmation/sources for Mombers, de Lucel, and Molengraefs families in 15th/16th-century Boxtel

P.S. Additional Archival Proofs and Chronological Verifications:

To save local experts some time and firmly secure this multi-generational lineage against potential chronological or onomastic traps, I have verified the following slates of primary evidence:

1) Any questions regarding the early generations of the Molengraefs line are resolved by an extraordinary paper trail in the Boxtel records. In RA Boxtel 57, f. 62-v, akte 424 (1499), Henrick Peter Molengraefs settles a rye rent debt with the Holy Ghost Masters that originally stems from a deed dated March 10, 1448, where Peter Molengraefs, as father of Henrick, sold a rent out of a meadow called die Borschot. Henrick executes this 1499 deed to safeguard himself and his sister Machteld. Furthermore, RA Boxtel 57, f. 109-v, akte 801 (1503) explicitly logs him as "Henrick wettige zoon van Peter Molengraefs" upon selling land under Tongeren. Additional entries (f. 103-r, akte 753 and f. 104-v, akte 766) place him firmly in Boxtel at the turn of the century bordering the common lands of Zelissel and encumbering de Brugakker.

2) The 65-Year Chronological Gap & Age Statement Checkmate:
A 65-year gap between the father’s early marriage deeds (1488/1489) and the son’s active adult marriage deeds (1554) typically flags a missing generation. However, I have uncovered an ironclad deposition that entirely resolves the chronology. In RA Boxtel 68, f. 20-v & 21-r, akten 3590 and 3591 (1559), it is explicitly stated that Peter Henrick Moelengraefs was a teulman (agricultural cultivator) in Boxtel aged approx. 74 years. Mathematically, 1559 minus 74 places his birth in c. 1485, perfectly positioning him as the child of Henrick Peter Molengraefs' c. 1485 marriage to Stijnen (Kerstijn) Huijskens in Oirschot. He was simply a long-lived family patriarch managing affairs in his 60s and 70s (appearing in RA Boxtel 62, f. 33-r & 47-v as early as 1539 as zoon wijlen Henrick), right before being recorded as a widower in late 1562 (RA Boxtel 68, f. 84-r).

3) The Multi-Conegont (Van Lucel Branch) Identity Lock:Aelbrecht Lammens van Lucel explicitly named two living daughters Conegont (the elder, married to Jan Aert Groijs, and the younger, married to Jan Mombers). The 1500 agreement involving the van Lucel heirs eliminates any potential mix-up by naming both ladies side-by-side as two distinct widows in the exact same sentence. This legally establishes that Jan Mombers was undeniably tied to the younger sister, matching the original 1469 entry naming him as the husband of "Koenen the youngest daughter."

Thanks and look forward to your thoughts.

P.S. The 1502–1503 Back-to-Back Timeline Masterstroke:

The close 9-month window between June 1502 and March 1503 provides a clear, collaborative confirmation of Henrick's identical persona by showing a direct chronological correlation across his dual-regional estates:

The June 1502 Oirschot Deed (RA Oirschot, f. 2-v, akte 013): On June 29, 1502 (St. Paul's Day), Henrick is active in Oirschot. He is explicitly recorded using his full hereditary compound surname as "Henrick Peter Molengraafs als man van Kerstijn Rutger Huijskens." He is accompanied by his long-documented maternal in-laws—Adriaen Goijaert Smollers, Goijaert Jacop Keijmps, and Goijaert van Geloven—to sell a half-buunder meadow called de Hage located in the ter Meijden sector.

The March 1503 Boxtel Deed (RA Boxtel 57, f. 109-v, akte 801): Just nine months later, on March 1, 1503, he is active in neighboring Boxtel. He is recorded using his standard legal patronymic identifier as "Henrick wettige zoon van Peter Molengraefs." He stands before Boxtel officials Engbrecht van de Berselaer and Gerit Coppens to sell a zesterzaad of land located under the Tongeren sector.

Reviewing these two records together shows Henrick consistently managing his dual-regional inheritance rights in real-time. Because both documents utilize his distinct name structure within months of each other—one anchored directly to his Oirschot marriage and the other to his Boxtel parentage—it provides a unified timeline showing a single individual executing transfers across both jurisdictions right before the family records transition to his son, Peter (zoon wijlen Henrick).

The 1539–1542 Mid-Century Generational Transition:

The emergence of the family estate records from the late 1530s and early 1540s provides the precise chronological link that bridges the timeline between Henrick Peter Molengraefs' final actions and the later life of his son, Peter:

The RA Boxtel 62 Estate Entries (Period 1539–1542): In the judicial protocols of Boxtel, volume 62, Peter is recorded actively managing family property affairs. On folio 33-r (entry 2309) and folio 47-v (entry 2308), he is explicitly recorded using the legal past-tense patronymic identifier as "Peter zoon wijlen Henrick Moelengraefs" (Peter, son of the late Henrick Molengraefs).

Reviewing these entries alongside the earlier records establishes a clear generational passing of the torch. Because Henrick was last seen executing deeds in the spring of 1503, these 1539 entries confirm his passing prior to this period while introducing Peter as a fully independent, active adult managing the inherited family interests. This perfectly anticipates Peter's later 1554 marriage transactions with Jenneken Mombers and his subsequent 1559 age deposition as a 74-year-old patriarch, locking the mid-century generational timeline into place with complete archival continuity.

Hello everyone,

I am seeking comments, peer reviews, and additional archival signatures regarding a comprehensive, multi-generational family reconstruction for the Mombers (de Momboir), van Lucel (Luissel), and Molengraefs lineages of Boxtel and Oirschot.

Thanks to a thorough review of the Oud Rechterlijk Archief (ORA) protocols and capital rent books, I have locked in a slates of primary source evidence that hopefully survives all chronological and onomastic traps.

I. The Paternal Line (Mombers)

Lucas Momboirs / de Momber (Active c. 1420–1460, deceased before 1488). His core family estate was at the Kerkbrake in Tongeren (RA Boxtel 55, f. 43bis-v, Act 115).

Jan Lucas Momboirs / de Momber (Boxtel Alderman c. 1470–1493, deceased by 1497). He married Conegunden (the younger), daughter of Aelbrecht Lammens van Lucel (proven by RA Boxtel 55, f. 289-v, Act 954 and the 1500 van Lucel heirs agreement). His home in Brukelen directly bordered 't water genoemd de Molengraft in 1490 (RA Boxtel 56, f. 128v, Act 891).

Lucas Jans Mombers / de Momber (Active as family guardian in RA Boxtel 57, f. 107r, Act 797 in 1503; deceased before 1530). He might be the Lucas who married Aleyten (Aleijt), as explicitly documented in the 1530 's-Hertogenbosch Pensioenboek (SAH OSA 2697, f. 282v–283r).

Jenneken Lucas de Momber (Daughter of Lucas Jans & possibly Aleyten; deceased by 1559/1562).

II. The Paternal Convergence (Molengraefs & Huijskens)

Peter Molengraefs (Active mid-1400s; sold a rent out of die Borschot on March 10, 1448).

Henrick Peter Molengraefs (Active 1488–1503). He married Stijnen (Kerstijn) Rutger Huijskens in Oirschot (RA Oirschot, f. 83-r, entry 070, 11 Apr 1488). His dual-regional identity is locked via back-to-back entries: the June 1502 Oirschot deed (RA Oirschot, f. 2-v, akte 013) and the March 1503 Boxtel deed (RA Boxtel 57, f. 109-v, akte 801).

Peter Henrick Molengraefs (Born c. 1485 – Deceased post-1562). His 65-year chronological gap is entirely resolved by an ironclad age deposition in RA Boxtel 68, f. 20-v (1559), explicitly stating he was a teulman aged approx. 74 years. He emerged as an independent adult manager following his father's death in the late 1530s (RA Boxtel 62, f. 33-r & 47-v).

III. The Final Inheritance Integration (1550–1562)

The alliance of these properties culminated when Peter Henrick Molengraefs married Jenneken Lucas de Momber.

RA Boxtel 65, f. 75-r (1550–1554): Identifies Peter as the husband of Janneken, daughter of Lucas Mombers.

RA Boxtel 68, f. 84-r (1559–1562): The final master key records Peter as the “weduwnaar van Jenneken” (widower of Jenneken) executing estate transfers alongside his zwager (brother-in-law) Jan Lucas de Momber (son of the late Lucas de Momber). Their son, Cornelis Peter Henrick Molengraefs, subsequently assumed control of the consolidated Tongeren and Ottenbosch sectors.

Open Questions & Requests for Clarification to the Forum:

Dower Rights of Aleyten (Aleijt): Has anyone tracking the RA Boxtel 61 (1527–1537) volumes found the exact text of the entry on folio 204r regarding "de erfgenamen van Lucas die Momber"? I am trying to verify if Lucas's widow, Aleyten, formally released her tocht (usufruct/life rent) to her children during this specific partition.

The "de Schaefroij" Property Shifting: Do the mid-16th-century Boxtel cijnsboeken (rent books) or the Koningsbede tax slates explicitly record when the de Schaefroij parcel shifted names from Jan Lucas Mombers (who held it bordering Peter Molengraefs in 1482) down to Cornelis Molengraefs?

The Natural Children (Frederick & Bartholomeus): In RA Boxtel 63, f. 41r (1544–1547), we see Lucas's illegitimate son Bartholomeus alongside his legitimate son Frederick. Do later partitions show these natural sons receiving cash settlements in lieu of real estate, thereby ensuring the core Kerkbrake fields remained unfragmented for Jenneken’s line?

I welcome any corrections, alternative interpretations of these signatures, or complementary citations you might have in your personal databases!

Thanks!

Hi:

Just checking in — any thoughts?

Regards,

Steve

Hello Steve,

I won't be able to help you with your information, but just replying to get your post back in the picture i.e. back on the first page :-)

With regards,

Belem

Lambrecht Everaerts van Luyssel is al overleden vóór 10 mei 1414. Margriet, zijn weduwe, gaat dan haar tocht af ten behoeve van haar dan 8 genoemde kinderen, in een huis etc. aan de Vuchterdijk in ’s-Hertogenbosch. Zie BP-R1188-1412/14-fol. 410v, dd quinta post Cantate, decima may (1414).

De volgende akte is doorgestreept en niet afgemaakt, maar wel op folio 413v.
Margriet, de weduwe, wordt dan genoemd als dochter van wijlen Aelbert die Meyer.
De kinderen geven dit huis aan de Vuchterdijk uit voor diverse cijnzen aan Jan zoon van wijlen Ghijb Deenkenssoen. Zie fol. 413v. dd Sabbato post Cantate, XII may (=12-5-1414).
De acht kinderen zijn:Aelbert, Everaert, Gerit, nog onmondig, Jutta gehuwd met Michiel zoon van wijlen Aert zoon van wijlen Michiel van Hal, Margriet gehuwd met Jan zoon van wijlen Aert van Meyelsfoirt, Batha, Lijsbeth en Mechteld.