Johannes de Beke (Casselboek 1312) and Bartholomeus dictus Meus van Beke — a question

As I tie in the Van Beke's trought Arnt Vrient - Lucas - Bartholomeus (x Bele) - Jan, this is a fellow ancestry that still has questions with regards the unmentioned pre-generations.

First there are lots of Van Beke's and Van der Beke's before 1400 in Noord-Brabant and elsewhere. It is a 'stream' name. Two of the possible places of origin are Beek (en Donk) near Helmond and Hilvarenbeek near Tilburg. With multiple origins there are also different coats of arms. For the period before 1400, three are known to me.

The family in question comes from Beek en Donk. The coat of arms are 3 chevrons above each other. It looks like:

bhic.nl/onderzoeken/zegels?mivast=235&mizig=23&miadt=235&miview=ldt&milang=nl&mizk_alle=beke

google.com/search?q=wapen+limbricht&newwindow=1&sca_esv=038efc59bde14a07&sxsrf=APpeQnsujeDbcHqsOhV9y_CBHDMCR_gnig%3A1790836227788&ei=A_69av7ZL5eri-gP8MXwyAU&biw=1536&bih=695&oq=wapen+limb&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiCndhcGVuIGxpbWIqBggBGBYYHjIFEAAYgAQyBhAAGBYYHjIGEAAYFhgeMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIIEAAYgAQYogRI2z5QjghYtCRwAXgBkAEAmAFGoAHvA6oBATi4AQHIAQD4AQGYAgmgArsEwgIKEAAYRxjWBBiwA8ICBBAjGCfCAg4QLhiABBjHARivARiOBcICCBAAGBYYHhgKwgIIEAAYgAQYtAfCAgsQLhiABBjHARivAcICDhAuGIAEGLEDGMcBGK8BwgIOEC4YgAQYxwEYrwEYmAWYAwCIBgGQBgiSBwE5oAfRP7IHATi4B7QEwgcDMi05yAcvgAgB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

The colours are not known. The coat of arms stands out from the other wellknown one that goes back to 1266 and can be viewed here:
bhic.nl/onderzoeken/wapenboeken-illustre-lieve-vrouwe-broederschap

That's for starters.

Dear Hans,

Thank you for the seal links, and especially for the seal of Bartholomeus dictus Meus van Beke. The three chevrons, and Beek en Donk rather than Hilvarenbeek, are a useful guardrail. I had not separated the arms.

On the pre-generations I will leave the Casselboek Johannes open, as you do. The clerk’s own note (nescio si est Johannes de Vlierden) and the Helvoirt widow are enough reason not to force him onto this stem.

What I think the two later rolls do show, tentatively, is an internal succession, not a link back to 1312:

Stootboek: Bertelmeeus Jhans sone was van Beke, the property at Beke (house, land, meadows, fisheries, Brabant law), with a later margin Johes filius.

Spechtboek: Jan zoen Bartholomeus Jans zoen van Beke, the property at Beke by Sint-Oedenrode, same appurtenances, and above the entry lysbet meeus dochter de Beke sijn suster.

That Jan and Lysbet look like the mr. Johannes and Elizabeth in the 1389 division (BP 1178 f. 122v), children of Bartholomeus, with Lucas and with their uncle heer Arnoldus Vrien. So: Jan → Bartholomeus dictus Meus × Bela → Jan and Lysbet (and Lucas, Hadewigis). The 1312 holder stays off that line until a renewal names him.

Grateful for the correction if the margin or the seal points elsewhere. If I am wrong on that succession, please advise.

Regards,

Steve

I have traced the colors of the coat of arms of the Van Beeck's.
In the 17th century they must have been 3 black chevrons on a silver field.

One of the 8 quarters of the nobleman Baltus Johan van den Hasselholt alias van Stockheijm shows these coat of arms with the color combination.

This Baltus was the son of
Johan van Stockheijm (van den Hasselholt), son of the damsel Isabella Vaeck, daughter of the damsel Lutgardis van Beeck, daughter of the nobleman
Willem van Beeck, son of the nobleman Jan van Beke/Beeck, son of Arnt (Vrient) van Beke, son of
Jan Vrients van Beke, son of Arnt Vrient van Beke, son of Lucas van Beke, son of Bartholomeeus, son of Jan van Beke.

heemkundekringdevonder.nl/bewoningsgeschiedenis/Ostade/Ostade/Voormalig_huis_F210

huisseling.nl/geschiedenis/huize-ringelenburg/

cbgfamiliewapens.nl/zoeken?view=cbgsearch&layout=gallery&search=van%20Beeck&collection=Familiewapens&start=50

Keep in mind though that the 17th century colors can differ from the original colors in the 14th century. Younger sons had the liberty to keep the family coat of arms, or to add or to reduce heraldic elements or the change the colors (devaluation of the colors, f.e. gold-> silver).